Manchesterism - our report on Burnham, growth, economy, housing and place

Image: Victoria North, courtesy of Manchester City Council / Far East Corporation (FEC)

Following the speech by Andy Burnham at the Peoples' History Museum in Manchester, Future Cities Forum held a discussion to look at how the city has set a standard for development in housing and infrastructure, and how this might be used as a blueprint for the rest of the UK.

In his speech Andy Burnham spoke of his ambition for 'good growth in every postcode' and 'hope in every heart'. Central to his growth vision was the new term 'Manchester-ism' and he spoke of the 'Greater Manchester Way' which he said demonstrated how the city had worked at successful public/private partnerships. He stated that he hoped his vision of regeneration was something that future investors would back. He mentioned adopting the National Housing Philosophy that Finland has pioneered and how high streets could recover if business rates were lowered and that they could lead to Britain's 'renaissance'.

Image: Engine Hall, on left, at the People's History Museum in Manchester where Andy Burnham held his recent speech (courtesy PHM)

Those contributors joining the discussion were Cllr Gavin White, Executive Member for Housing and Regeneration, Manchester City Council, Mark Graham, Director and Manchester studio lead, LDA Design, Natalia Maximova, Partner and Design Director, Sheppard Robson, Yolande Barnes of Yolande Barnes Consulting, Professor Emeritus and Chair of the Bartlett Real Estate Institute at UCL and Marcus Richards, Partner, EY - who has been advising the public-private partnership on the Victoria North scheme.

Cllr White began by answering a question around whether Andy Burnham is a 'romantic' or a 'realist' in his vision for regeneration in the UK:

'I think from what Andy has outlined, obviously we've worked with Andy quite closely here in Greater Manchester over the last 10 years, and he's been a real champion and support for us in Manchester with some of the housing developments that we've done all across the city. Obviously, it's quite noticeable what's happening in the city centre, but that isn't the full story of housing in Manchester. There's new housing, new social and affordable housing in every ward of the city, stretching from Heaton Park in the north right down to Wythenshawe..

So I think your question around, is Andy a romantic or a realist? I think it's a bit of both, to be honest. And I think that's kind of part of his appeal as Mayor, and probably now as our Prime Minister, that he does have a vision, one of hope, but he's also practical about how to deliver that. And I think we've seen that in Greater Manchester, you know, Greater Manchester isn't perfect, but we've seen the fastest growing economy at over 3% per year in the last 10 years, much faster than the rest of the UK. And some of that obviously is linked to housing and regeneration and jobs and other investments. So I think Andy's looking to take some of what happened in Greater Manchester and apply that at a national scale, that will be challenging, but I think there is lots of good growth that can happen and hope in every heart, as he said.

'But I think particularly on the sort of social and affordable housing, we've seen lots of investment in that in Manchester, using brownfield sites, using density to drive growth and regeneration. And other cities are seeing that as well, Leeds particularly as an example, but maybe not to the extent that Manchester has. Also, we're looking at a new town in Manchester. So that's something that is quite ambitious, going back with our history of investment using brownfield sites, but 15,000 homes in 15 years at Victoria North, and really challenging and advocating with government to be at the top of their list for a new town.

'Quite a few of the other areas are pulling out of that (new towns) scheme for various different political reasons, but we're really passionate about doing that with Victoria North and Andy has visited there a number of times and he came last week with Cllr Bev (Craig) who is the candidate for the mayor. So yeah, I think we are hopeful. I think the future, there are challenges, but I think in terms of Greater Manchester, I think having Andy as prime minister will be a good thing. And I'm sure obviously as an MP now in Greater Manchester, we will hopefully get his ear, but obviously he's got to live now for the whole of the country. That's the challenge that he faces and the party I'm part of also faces.

Image: view over the River Irwell in Manchester to the Ordsall Chord railway bridge, with Enterprise City district and the Factory cultural venue on left

Gavin was asked about Andy Burnham's emphasis on 'place' in his speech. He responded:

'I think on creating places that people want to live. So I think that's really important that, when we're building homes and building homes in density, you actually look at the bits between the homes. So the public realm, the schools, the doctors (surgeries), the dentists, the parks, the green space. And I think we've done quite a lot of work to try and do that. Again, it's not finished and Manchester has got some really great assets in terms of rivers and canals, that if I'm honest, historically, we've turned our back on a little bit, but some of the development has really started to embrace actually how do we use the Irk and the Medlock and the Mersey and the Irwell in Salford, as assets that create great places to live.

'Obviously, people want to be closer to jobs and culture and leisure and hospitality in terms of that green space, new parks alongside the new homes, access to public transport. So yes, I think the planning process sort of helps to facilitate that. So, twenty years ago, the CIS tower was the tallest building and stuck out by quite a long way. But obviously that isn't the case now. You can't see the CIS tower because it's surrounded by higher buildings. So we have looked at a tall building strategy. It's not appropriate everywhere.

'We've looked at a planning policy and framework that encourages densification in certain areas, but that is limited. and it does mean that using that density helps us to build on brownfield sites but also then helps our partners in GM. So through Places for Everyone we've looked at a strategy for more homes in the core of Manchester and bits of Salford and Trafford that allows then Tameside, Bolton, Rochdale, Bury, Wigan and all the other boroughs to maybe not build as much on their green belt and that's what Places for Everyone was all about that Andy has led on as the Mayor.

'So I think in terms of planning, it's not just looking at Manchester, it's looking at GM as a whole, looking at where densification can happen, and actually we have been able to build thousands of homes on sites that were car parks and pretty scruffy car parks, and actually creating places and people's homes at the bottom of those towers. You've then got schools, you've got doctors, you've got dentists, you've got parks, green spaces, you've opened up the river, you know walking along the river and the canals is something that is being looked at now because 20-30 years ago we used to empty the canals in Ancoats because there were too many cars and shopping trolleys in them and it was easier to pull out cars if there was no water in them!

'Thankfully we're not doing that anymore and it's now about creating really great places that people want to live in. I think the other thing I'd just say, it's about diversification of housing and tenure. So not just flats. We do need townhouses and houses. So that's a strategy across the city. But also that mix of tenure in terms of social and affordable council shared ownership and market homes. And I think 25 years ago, we couldn't give council housing away in Manchester, nobody wanted to live in some areas, but that is just not the case anymore and we've had to respond to that as a city and I think we're still responding to that to make sure that Manchester is a place for everyone and that growth is inclusive and everybody gets the benefit from that. I think that it is still a journey and a work in progress but obviously a lot has gone on on that agenda.'

Cllr White was asked whether walking and cycling had improved in the city and connected to towns outside.

Gavin responded:

'No, it's not happening the way we would like, but I think there is a plan to do more of that. And yes, we want to make sure that it's not just Manchester City Centre that gets the benefit of that growth, that all of the parts of Manchester where I'm a councillor, so from Wythenshawe to Higher Blakely and all places in between, but also the other parts of GM and that agenda also for Stockport Town Centre, Bolton Town Centre, Rochdale, Middleton, Ashton, Salford, Trafford, and all the other areas, Bury Market, and to get that benefit and that investment.

I think, work is progressing. So you look at what's happening in Stockport with the mayoral, and actually Andy's taken a really sort of place-first approach there - Stockport isn't controlled by Labour, it's controlled by the Liberal Democrats - and they actually opted out of places for everyone. So they opted out of the spatial planning strategy, but an approach was taken to sort of get over that and set up a mayoral development corporation, look to build homes, look to open up the River Mersey in the town centre there, and Metrolink is planned to go there.

So yes, there's examples in the towns of Greater Manchester where that's happening, but clearly we want to do more and see more. And I've always said, if Manchester succeeds, that's really good for the other boroughs of Greater Manchester. So if Stockport and Bolton and Rochdale and Oldham succeed, that's good for Manchester too, because a lot of our residents, say in Higher Blakely and Moston, live a lot closer to Oldham and Rochdale town centre than they do to Manchester, just because of the geography of how Manchester is structured.

'The same in places like Wythenshawe, people in Wythenshawe live a lot closer to Stockport and town centre and places like Altrincham or Stretford or Sale than they do to Manchester. So, yeah, we want everywhere to succeed and to grow and that's kind of a really key thing that I think the Prime Minister should help us with now because he used to be Mayor of Greater Manchester, but I know Bev is really keen on that too as the candidate for Mayor.'

Image: Deansgate Manchester, with view to Odeon cinema complex located in the historic Great North Railway's Goods Depot and warehouse building

Mark Graham from LDA Design touched on whether those cycling and walking measures are going in the right direction and whether it is creating proper connectivity for town centres.

Mark said:

'I think progress has been made and one of one of the key challenges is how the early investment has inevitably been around the city centre and then travelling out towards key affluent areas down in Trafford and Charlton and Didsbury, for example.

'One of the great things that has come out of the last few years under Andy Burnham has been that focus on GM towns and their regeneration. I guess the value of the Combined Authority and and the way it's been shaped, is that, I think Gavin touched on this, that the city centre can almost thrive within itself. And it can gather that international investment, the density that we've talked about. But then that has then the trickle down effect and the opportunities that the GM towns have brought.

And I think that the Combined Authority has done a really good job of providing certainty in terms of decision making, certainty in terms of opportunities for funding. and that has primarily been focused around infrastructure and kind of de-risking and unlocking and, you know, the kind of Brownfield Regeneration Fund and affordable housing, things like that, but we've been lucky to work in areas that need that investment, you know, places like Newton Heath, which I know you've been working on Gavin, and we're part of the work on Middleton and Ashton, which are both part of Mayoral Development Corporations now as well.

I think with that, that's brought opportunities for investment in really key place making things like cycling and walking. So I think there are positive changes happening. It's making sure that momentum keeps going and whoever the next Mayor is, and picking up the mantle and and making sure that coordination keeps going. And I guess going back to that romantic or realist point, I think there's a touch of both elements there. And I think his point on re-industrialization is probably that realist. In there, we need to be realistic in terms of where we need to invest and grow and gather a bit of that kind of industrial independence and that devolution towards places.

'He talked about place a lot his speech and you don't often hear the higher echelons of politics talking about place and I think that's a really probably a good lesson he's learned during his time as a Mayor, that you need to focus on place and geographies and devolution isn't a new thing. I think he talked as if it was a new thing. I grew up and lived a long time in Scotland and, you know, devolution's been there for a long time and in various guises, but what that actually looks like in physical, you know, in actual, actuality is going to be quite interesting and that will relate to technology and innovation, definitely.

Mark was asked what he made of Andy Burnham's suggestion of lowering business rates to revive the high street?

Mark suggested:

'it's not just down to that, but I think that is a huge element of it. You know, when we're putting together town centre master plans, talking about high street renewal, we often talk about how we want independent businesses to kind of bring some life and energy to a high street, whether that be in a city centre or in a town centre. And the reality is if with the business rates as they are, it's very, very difficult for those businesses to grow and thrive.

'We all see that on a day to day basis, our favourite pub or our favourite cafe closes or, you know, like a record shop. These are the things that really are really important. So I do think it's a really important element of that. Of course, it needs to be backed up by key investment in parking and other servicing, things like that. We've just finished a major high street renewal in Newcastle. There's a huge investment by the council, upwards of £20 million to enhance the quality of the high street. They have been alongside that looking at business rates and engaging with local businesses to offer independents the opportunity to get onto the high street and so it needs to be a cohesive approach definitely.'

Image: Grey Street. Newcastle - courtesy LDA Design

The University of Manchester has been trying to grow its student population and retain its graduates who traditionally have found it difficult to find homes in the city. Sheppard Robson has been helping to develop the district at Fallowfield and student housing in the city, while retaining heritage features.

Natalia Maximova stated:

'I think this particular project, addresses the University of Manchester's ambition to provide world class education and student homes. The main population of the campus is first year undergrads and I think that's the foundation of bringing this first-year cohort on a campus. The ambition behind the project is to be the largest passiv haus project in Europe. At the moment there are different ways of measuring it and I think it is the largest privately funded public sector project in the world, It's about £450 million so this is actually a good illustration of that model.

''So it's really large scale and it was only possible in a place like Manchester where the University is a big landlord. Since the 60s it's been a student residence and it's quite controversial in Manchester.... but within the planning there is a sort of a strategic decision to increase the net number from the outset so the outline planning which was submitted did secure a high number of students there. So there's a sort of confidence in numbers but also strategic thinking as we already have the precedent of students living there.

'It is down to our skills as designers to make sure it actually works great in terms of retaining all the existing trees. We've got four or five hundred and thirty trees on site and we're retaining most of them and wherever we have to reduce some number locally we replace them in groups of one or three. It's all pedestrianized, it's a car-free environment which for students does work. I appreciate it's not always the case for residential developments with mixed tenure, but for students it's perfect.

'It's quite an unusual combination of scales because the surrounding areas, as you rightly said, is actually residential low-rise, whilst our site, it steps into the middle with taller blocks. Well, there are two reasons behind it. First, we didn't want to cover the site completely with lower-rise buildings, then you lose that important green infrastructure. So we wanted to maximize the external spaces, so about 70% of the site is still outdoor green space.

'But also I think it's a kind of parkland setting for the urban scale, that's quite unusual. I think in London you get these developments like that, so taller blocks sitting in existing landscape, Elephant & Castle is one of them where you have existing greenery that offsets this quite ambitious scale of buildings. Our tallest is about 14-15 storeys in the middle. But I think because of the mature landscape, it will look quite comfortable from day one.

'What I wanted to add to that, because it's also links to the circulation and green transport, we rely on students using buses and cycle lanes, but also this number of students will no doubt attract e-bikes and deliveries and this is something that I would like to monitor as a group of designers with the Council, to see how these big clusters of residential developments - be they mixed tenure or students - attract these speeding bikes, because at the moment there is no strict system how they are regulated within the city. Whether they're registered fully and how could they be monitored is important, because it's wonderful to bring all these connections, but they sometimes get abused by the speeding bikes. This is something that I'd like the City to look into once these developments emerge.'

Image below: Fallowfield, University of Manchester, courtesy of Sheppard Robson

The conversation moved from student housing to look at whether Andy Burnham is right to suggest looking at our national housing strategy. Yolande said:

'We do need to look at our national housing philosophy, because I think we've got all sorts of things muddled up. And arguably, I often say, well, if 1.5 million units is the answer, then we are asking the wrong question. But I think there's cause for optimism in this whole issue of 'Manchester-ism', which I actually interpreted as being 'place-ism'. And I think that in itself is progress.

'Thinking about places and whole places and especially all the partnerships around it and if you like the complexities of urbanism has to be a step forward and to have a Prime Minister who's actually thinking in that way and has practical experience of bringing all sorts of parties together to get things done - I think has to be an enormous step forward. What though I think is a problem is if we continue to think about housing as a kind of stand-alone commodity and it will be perfectly fine.

'I think it's certainly a very good thing to be looking at what other countries do and how results are achieved. I think there's an awful lot we can learn globally from all sorts of different countries and mechanisms. But I think what we've got to get away from and what I see hope for here is thinking about houses in terms of numbers and units. People don't live in housing units, they live in neighbourhoods.

'This sort of emphasis on a place-based approach starts to really address what living really is. It's not even the bits between the buildings as Gavin referred to. I think we have to start with the bits between the buildings, which we geographers call streets. If we start with the urbanism, if we start with the place, then I think we can make progress. On that note, I think I would love to see the 1.5 million unit target translated into say 100,000 new neighbourhoods, because that should enable the same sort of delivery of housing where it's needed. And I think the fact that council housing has been raised again, I think is important.

'The reason I think 100,000 new neighbourhoods would be so much more productive is because maybe we can get away from this idea that every new unit has to be built new. So one of my concerns is that we've heard a lot about tall buildings and leaving aside my worry that we're equating tall with high density. High density doesn't have to be tall, it can be mid rise, but leaving that aside I think there's a problem with tall buildings because they're incredibly expensive machines for living in, to misquote Corbusier. What we're finding is that increasingly, the market is recognizing this, recognizing that service charges - future service charges - are going to be a major impediment to affordability.

'I think the market is starting to, as it were, capitalize those very high future service charges for the replacement of lifts and all that kind of stuff, and starting to discount flats, apartments in massive buildings, whether they're tall buildings or just big buildings. And we're going to see a continued relative decline in the value of that sort of property. That has important implications because basically I think it's going to mean that values fall below build costs. And we've got a huge viability problem with tall buildings and massive buildings. So I expect to see, just for those sort of financial reasons, a shift away from what we've been building for the last 30 years or so, towards a much more diverse range of housing mixes, be like modern mansion blocks, as well as terraced houses and other sort of more street-based properties.

'Let's get away from housing as a commodity. Because actually, if instead you put neighbourhood first, then automatically, there's what I call 'neighbourhood commercial', your high street uses, which includes retail, but it's by no means confined to retail, as it includes small businesses and workshops and kitchens, and you know, the list goes on. So for people to really live in a neighbourhood and have good homes, it automatically means you've got a vibrant street scene, usually towards the centre of the neighbourhood, but within walkable distance of most of the housing. It's automatic.

'I don't think the problem of the high streets really is the difference between a low and a high tax rate, I think there are more fundamental problems at stake. I mean, I think you can use the taxation system to kickstart things, maybe to divert funds towards business improvement districts or something like that. But I think this is fundamentally much more about investing in the whole place because something very surprising, we found this during COVID, there were some neighbourhoods that absolutely struggled and some which completely thrived.

'It had so much to do with the nature of that neighbourhood, and the mixed-use walkable neighbourhood thrived. And so I think this is about prosperity, creating place productivity, place prosperity. And I think the problem with the high street is so much more complex and multi-layered than just a failure of retail or just too high rates. It has to do with, funnily enough, I think, to some extent, with the over-centralization, these very sort of mechanistic models, retail models that concentrated everything into some cities and detracted from others, or some neighbourhoods and detracted from others, I think we've got to be very much more ground-up entrepreneurial about places. And I think this is where the devolution piece fits in very, very nicely, that actually giving some autonomy, some power, some agency to local communities means that you're more likely to have these entrepreneurial places, if you like. And that's important.

Image: Deansgate Manchester at intersection with Spinningfields district (courtesy Future Cities Forum)

Marcus Richards, Partner at EY, gave his view on Burnham's vision, against a backdrop of what some see as the UK's excessive borrowing rates:

Marcus said:

'There's a lot I could probably say about my views on on policy that span economic growth, welfare and the government's balance sheet. I think what's probably of relevance to the debate around Burnham's aspirations is that we have an economic growth problem in our country and if I observe what I think's happened over the past two years of the Labour government, whereby I'm certainly someone who thinks there is really credible aspiration that's come out of the Labour government machine, but actually when it hits the ground I think that it has not met the ambition that it's essentially sort of predicated on, and I put that down to a couple of factors that I think are going to be really important for a Burnham administration, there has been for a long time a push on the need for public and private partnership in whatever form that might take.

'I think everything we've spoken about today has a theme of public-private, closer working relationship, collaboration, co-funding, whatever it may be, and put to one side what sort of government borrowing restrictions there may be, a lot of this is going to need money, input and capability from the private sector, and so how best can we encourage that as a nation?

'That what's going to be really important for Burnham going forward is creating an environment that makes these sorts of opportunities investable, and that hasn't really happened effectively at the moment. And I think where you see government seeking to stand up initiatives, as Councillor White will be aware, we have been involved in the new town program in Manchester and in other jurisdictions as well. A great example of where government is seeking to stand up big policy ambitions founded upon public and private partnership. Manchester is probably one of the rare examples where that's actually worked quite well because of the reason being they've created an environment that makes that opportunity investable.

'Other examples, I'd actually argue the new town policy has sort of suffocated the potential of private investment and I think it's a relatively easy, and I'll say relatively because I appreciate it's sort of easy sitting on a different side of the fence, but relatively easy problem to solve whereby it's important that government sets the sort of policy frameworks that provide clarity of decision making, greater certainty around the sort of time scales that are involved in these sorts of initiatives and the sort of outputs that investors look at that can allow them to determine is this an investable proposition or not?

'To that degree, that overcomes the problem of whether or not the government's redirecting some of its own resources to a welfare bill or whatever it may be because it's going to be something that's fuelled by private capital and so I think my sort of rallying call to Burnham on the assumption he steps into the the chair in a few weeks time, is to work really hard to create the sort of environments for investable propositions, and realise that doesn't necessarily mean putting public capital, putting that sort of skin in the game, it means putting in place confidence, decision making, a clear vision, a compelling vision, all the sort of things that Manchester has done effectively, but replicate that across the country, that's going to be fundamental to us securing where we want to be as a nation.'

On re-building high streets and also making sure new housing has connected infrastructure, in the face of funds being drawn away to defence, Marcus said:

'I mean that assumption is one whereby we're assuming that because public capital is having to be redirected elsewhere it can't be replaced through other sources and I fundamentally don't think that has to be the case. If you look at where successful kind of viability gaps have been closed across some of these big housing programs, primarily that's been through more innovative commercial models that don't draw heavily on the public purse, they focus on better value capture mechanisms, that better incentivize economic growth that can then be monetized and help to close viability gaps.

' I don't think we should be entering into the kind of binary debate of if we're having to redirect public capital into defence and to be clear I'm not the defence specialist, but even within that I'm aware there is much more conversation about the role of private capital in the pursuit of the government's objectives there but it doesn't have to be a binary debate of well we're having to direct public capital into defence thereby we need to limit our ambitions around housing, around regeneration, that doesn't have to be the case but we just have to think about these things differently.

'High street is probably a reasonable example of that whereby I think if you look at the societal changes we're going through where there is a sort of looming recognition of the importance of human interaction and the sort of benefits that brings to communities, high streets have to be integral to that. And so whilst undoubtedly we still need to tinker around the edges of what sort of mechanisms we've put in place around business rates, let's actually change the dial on what it is as to how we measure the effectiveness of these places - of these community places.

'I spend quite a lot of time trying to think about what we can learn from history and times gone by in terms of sort of challenges we're grappling with now. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate really bold, fresh thinking, but if you look at the original conception of these sort of garden cities back kind of in the post-war era where there was a big focus on kind of regenerative, collective efforts to rebuild the country whilst we're going through a period of, at that point, unprecedented sort of societal change,

'Actually the key measure that these garden cities sought to achieve wasn't necessarily one of economic growth or new housing units or distance to work, travel, whatever it may be, it was one of citizen camaraderie and companionship. And for me, placing that emphasis on the high street is not necessarily just about economic growth, it's about how can we create spaces that improve the companionship amongst citizens and communities. Surely that's got to be something, if you look at what's happening in the world around us, we've got to be yearning for. And I appreciate that's maybe a step away from my normal financially minded, economic minded head, but that's something I think is really important for us to be thinking about as a nation.

Image: tram moving down Cross Street Manchester in April 2025

Natalia commented:

'I wouldn't mind adding to the High Street debate. Not every inch of the space should necessarily work as a revenue earning space. It's an opportunity for streets and spaces to breathe and that kind of increases dwell time. I'm sure Mark will second that, because it's not just the shopping experience or whatever experience people have, it's actually just being outside and enjoying the outside. The green quality of this space is also vastly important especially in the heat like we're having now but generally it just creates a sense of well-being.

Yolande added:

'I do think it's really important that they are places that people engage with, and I think we've seen since COVID the value of high streets even more, and people have used high streets. So our footfall for high streets has recovered a lot quicker than even some of the city centre out-of-town shopping, so that's an interesting debate. Seeing more residential on high streets, more parks and green spaces alongside retail and leisure is good, but we've done something where we're going to be opening our libraries on Sundays again.

'We've got the funding now after 15 years where we can open libraries and those community spaces that are really great drivers of footfall and engagement and fantastic for regeneration. So how government can work with councils on business rates, how do we encourage more diverse use so it's not all bake shops and chicken shops, you know, we'd like more powers locally to encourage that.

Image: Manchester Central Library in St Peter's Square - dusk

'But as Marcus said, one of the strengths I think of Manchester, it's not been perfect, but is that public sector private partnership and we see that on the high streets, we see that on a bigger scale in the New Towns programme or city centre investment. I think councils recognise they can't do this alone, but they can help set a framework and a vision or place that then other people can get behind. And I think making sure they can get behind that for 5, 10, 15 years because some of these interventions are longer term, like the New Town programme, you know, we're here with that for 15 years, so you know, the market and private sector investments need that certainty. So I think government probably does need to engage on all of those things, whether it's the local high street or New Town's programme, it's really important to have that sort of vision. And then it's places, you know, it's not just homes, it's not the shops, but it is about green space and schools and doctors and dentists and libraries and yeah, places that people really want to live in.

'I think we have to be much more clear-headed about what a city is, actually. So we tend still to be thinking inside the silos of offices, residential, retail, industrial, as if they're all separate. And actually, sheer experience, if you think of almost any of the best places. it has a mixture of everything. I think if we stop thinking about high streets with all those retail connotations and started thinking about active frontages for example, where artisans or architects or even home working could take place as it were on the street, which hopefully would be shaded by trees rather than a vast expanse of tarmac and concrete.

'The important thing here is that we've also talked about, as it were, civic uses. I remember we used to visit a neighbouring village local library. That's the reason we visited and used the bakery and post office and everything in that location. So we forget that going to pay taxes or go to the library, there's all sorts of community and civic sort of uses that actually activate the high street as well and create that kind of place of prosperity.

'Cinemas, theatres, art galleries I mean the list goes on and on and actually we can learn enormous amounts not only from Finland or overseas but just looking at existing prosperous places in the UK where you start listing all the uses, all the human activities, that take place in these, and they're not uses that people think about or even plan for. There's lots of odd things going on in the best places, and we need some kind of flexibility and to take it back to finance as well. You know, the social viability, social growth, environmental capacity does not stand separate from financial or economic success. They're absolutely closely integrated. And I think in the late 20th century it was a very peculiar period in history where we actually separated out all these things and concentrated so much on the money and without recognising that the way people live and exist and work and prosper is so much more part of the story.

Image: view to Aviva Studios ('Factory International') with some of the heritage buildings and historic railway track of the Science and Industry Museum Manchester in foreground - courtesy of OMA

Mark:

'I think just on that cultural point, I think that's obviously one thing that has been a big success story of Manchester in terms of the level of investments versus what that's done in terms of the visitor economy, particularly for Manchester. I think, you know, obviously there's a significant investment in places like the Aviva Studios, which is, you know, I think time will tell in terms of the impact of that. But from my perspective, it's given some really good cultural exposure to my children that's kind of worth its weight in gold, I think.

'How do you give emphasis to culture and place at the heart of a city that then that trickles out to the places like Greater Manchester, if you're living in Oldham or Bury, you know, what do you get from that? And I think that's probably an important thing. We risk ignoring the point around affordability and that day-to-day life of people who are on potentially lower incomes or are in social housing and I think we need to recognize the value that place can bring in terms of investment in public realm and investment in local social infrastructure against big ticket items in terms of new highways, things like that

'So I think that we do need to think about viability in a different way in terms of financial investment and the other elements of placemaking that can come into that. The importance of that emphasis on place, going back to the subject in terms of Burnham's proposals, I think if that can be managed properly, I think that could really have a strong trickle-down effect in terms of planning, in terms of viability. We're working on a concept in Liverpool at the moment where it's a place-based green book assessment. That could be really interesting in terms of how we assign value to place enhancement.

Marcus:

'Well, yes, I think it's enormous. I certainly sit behind the principle of trying to create places that we are proud of as a nation. and I think that goes down to our public places, our high streets, but also even to some degree our sort of public buildings. I'm someone who advocates for times gone by when we did create public buildings that we would be proud to have our leaders sat within.

' I guess the point on culture is, I think it's a reasonable link to one of the examples of where they've tried to begin the process of devolution, that being the notion of the sort of tourist tax. I guess maybe one of my closing reflections is around devolution or its new form Manchester-ism. Actually we have to move pretty rapidly to what that actually means in practice and to some degree you know whilst it's a sort of novel quirky idea to relocate an aspect of government to create a number 10 in the north, let's start to talk properly about what actual fiscal devolution means in practice, let's stop tinkering around the edges.

'I think the tourism tax, regrettably, I still probably put into the bucket of being a little bit symbolic as opposed to being fundamentally transformational and how local and regional places can fund the requirements and objectives of place and for their communities. I think everything that I've heard of today reiterates to me the fact that if we want to empower our local leaders to change place and change the destination of our nation, put into their hands the fiscal capabilities to do so, otherwise how can you legitimately hold them to account if you're not giving them the fiscal capability to do that? That's where it works well in other countries, that's what we should be doing here, so I think that would be very high up on the to-do list if I was in Burnham's shoes.'

Image: tram station in St Peter's Square, looking towards the Manchester Town Hall annexe building